Arsenal Football Club

[Manu_Graz]

schooontn schrieb vor 3 Stunden:

so ganz versteh ich das interesse an havertz nicht, welche position soll der spielen?

Hab ich auch schon diskutiert.

Wir haben im Endeffekt für die 4 offensivsten Position Martinelli, Trossard, Nketiah, Jesus, Saka, Ødegaard, Vieira und Nelson. ESR auch noch. Pepe und Balogun (leider) wohl weg.

Ich sehe unsere Baustellen ganz wo anders als da um die 60 Mio für einen Havertz auszugeben.

[Jay Gooner]

https://twitter.com/AMonFootball/status/1669491865534562306?t=O40gWucvjfFq4hX7lClGug&s=19

[Jay Gooner]

Ich mein ich hab ja nix gegen die Zugänge, aber wenn ich mir die Summen anschau dann frag ich mich schon bissl wie da die Prioritätensetzung ist. Dass Mac Allister um 35m, oder 40 oder wieviel es genau auch ist, zu Liverpool geht und wir anscheinend über 90m für Rice zahlen ist ja schon relativ merkwürdig, und 60m für Havertz wenn wir an sich einen Balogun hätten der spielen will geht mir auch nicht so ganz ein. Aber sie werden schon wissen. 

Naja zumindest soll Partey vielleicht nach Saudi Arabien, das würd auf mehreren Ebenen gut passen, hoffentlich kommt da ein gutes Sümmchen rein

bearbeitet 19. Juni 2023 von Jay Gooner

[Danilo Kunhar]

Jay Gooner schrieb vor 9 Stunden:

Dass Mac Allister um 35m, oder 40 oder wieviel es genau auch ist, zu Liverpool geht

das war seine festgeschriebene Ablöse. Ansonsten hätte er bei Brighton keinen neuen Vertrag unterzeichnet.

[AdmonterKogel]

Manu_Graz schrieb am 15.6.2023 um 20:58 :

Hab ich auch schon diskutiert.

Wir haben im Endeffekt für die 4 offensivsten Position Martinelli, Trossard, Nketiah, Jesus, Saka, Ødegaard, Vieira und Nelson. ESR auch noch. Pepe und Balogun (leider) wohl weg.

Ich sehe unsere Baustellen ganz wo anders als da um die 60 Mio für einen Havertz auszugeben.

Hab das auch nur auf Twitter irgendwo gelesen, aber er sollte sehr gut in diese "Halbraum-10er" Position neben ødegaard passen, die arteta im Ballbesitz spielen lässt. Also hinten die 3er Kette, dann rückt Zinchenko neben Rice(?) ins DM, vorne Martinelli, Saka, Jesus und dahinter eben Havertz und ødegaard. Diese Rolle hat Havertz auch bei Leverkusen oft gespielt, ich sehe ihn dort auch viel mehr und nicht als 9er/falsche 9. 

[Jay Gooner]

AdmonterKogel schrieb vor 1 Stunde:

 Diese Rolle hat Havertz auch bei Leverkusen oft gespielt, ich sehe ihn dort auch viel mehr und nicht als 9er/falsche 9. 

Er soll aber eben, wie im von mir zuletzt geposteten twitter thread beschrieben, sehr wohl auch als kopfballstarke Sturmspitze-Option kommen, die uns bisher fehlt. Wäre dann ja auch mit seinen 1,93m unser mit Abstand größter Offensivspieler

bearbeitet 20. Juni 2023 von Jay Gooner

[soccerfreak89]

Jay Gooner schrieb vor 45 Minuten:

Er soll aber eben, wie im von mir zuletzt geposteten twitter thread beschrieben, sehr wohl auch als kopfballstarke Sturmspitze-Option kommen, die uns bisher fehlt. Wäre dann ja auch mit seinen 1,93m unser mit Abstand größter Offensivspieler

na bumm, das wusste ich auch noch nicht, dass Havertz ganze 1,93m groß ist..

Ich bin ja auch eher der Meinung, dass wir uns statt Havertz eher im defensiven Bereich verstärken sollten. Wenn City schon Walker abgeben will, dürfen wir da gerne mal anfragen.

[Jay Gooner]

soccerfreak89 schrieb vor 23 Minuten:

na bumm, das wusste ich auch noch nicht, dass Havertz ganze 1,93m groß ist..

Ich bin ja auch eher der Meinung, dass wir uns statt Havertz eher im defensiven Bereich verstärken sollten. Wenn City schon Walker abgeben will, dürfen wir da gerne mal anfragen.

1/3 von Havertz Toren für Chelsea waren mit dem Kopf 

 

re: Defensive, wir haben anscheinend heut 30m für Timber geboten, Ajax will 50, man hofft sich dazwischen zu treffen (Marktwert laut TM: 42m€)

[themanwhowasntthere]

Chelsea holt Nkunku um 60 und wir zahlen 65 für Havertz(von dem ich zwar viel halte aber die Summe ist lächerlich). Edu masterclass strikes again

bearbeitet 21. Juni 2023 von themanwhowasntthere

[Jay Gooner]

 

die Summe is heftig (wobei noch immer 25m weniger als Chelsea gezahlt hat lol) aber bin schon geil auf ihn, er passt einfach perfekt zu unserer Spielweise.

wüsst nicht wieso Nkunku bedeutend teurer sein sollt btw

[jimmy1138]

Also wenn ich mir die Stats ansehe: 7 Tore bei  ca.13 xG - da scheint's am Abschluß zu hapern, was aber generell das Problem bei Chelsea letzte Saison war...

[Jay Gooner]

jimmy1138 schrieb vor 1 Stunde:

Also wenn ich mir die Stats ansehe: 7 Tore bei  ca.13 xG - da scheint's am Abschluß zu hapern, was aber generell das Problem bei Chelsea letzte Saison war...

jup und ich behaupte wir brauchen auch keinen spieler der 20 Tore macht, das ist nicht unser spiel. letzte saison hatten wir keinen der mehr als 15 in der PL gemacht hat und sind fast meister geworden. Havertz' link-up play ist Elite und darauf freu ich mich

 

Havertz to Arsenal: Reasons Arteta is banking on switch from Chelsea No 9 to ‘left 8’

Spoiler

Arsenal are convinced they have found their midfield replacement for Granit Xhaka — and it is the man who spent most of last season playing as Chelsea’s No 9.

Kai Havertz is moving from west London to north London in a deal worth around £65million ($83m), approximately the same as the initial price Chelsea paid to acquire him from Bayer Leverkusen three years ago.

The legacy he will leave behind at Stamford Bridge is a strange one: scorer of the winning goals in the 2021 Champions League and 2022 Club World Cup finals, but also the frequently underwhelming focal point of a misfiring attack under Thomas Tuchel, Graham Potter and Frank Lampard that sank to historic depths last season.

Arsenal manager Mikel Arteta, however, appears to be every bit as beguiled by Havertz’s tantalising talent as Chelsea’s then-owner Roman Abramovich in 2020, and they have moved quickly since formalising their interest in the Germany international as the window officially opened last week.

It’s a deal — agreed in principle — that suits all parties; Chelsea co-owners Todd Boehly and Clearlake Capital made it clear they wanted Havertz either to re-sign on a lower, more incentive-based salary or they would consider offers for him in this window. Agreeing to sell before June 30 also means Havertz’s sale can be included in Chelsea’s accounts for 2022-23, offsetting the vast transfer spending in the new ownership group’s first year.

Real Madrid and Bayern Munich are both long-standing admirers of Havertz, but neither showed any inclination to get close to Chelsea’s valuation. Arsenal did, and they also won over the player with an exciting vision of his fit within Arteta’s dynamic system.

The Spanish manager was a huge personal draw in terms of style and individual coaching, and there is a belief that Havertz will be maximised within a structured possession game. It helps that Arsenal also offer the opportunity to stay in the Champions League next season (Chelsea will have no European football at all after finishing 12th), representing a club keen to build upon a surprise Premier League title challenge in the previous one.

That vision re-casts Havertz as a left-sided No 8 afforded the freedom to link play in the final third and join attacks from midfield, arriving late into the penalty area while Oleksandr Zinchenko or Kieran Tierney shift across from left-back into central midfield behind him.

We are about to enter phase three of Havertz’s positional odyssey, and how well it goes will determine how Arsenal and Chelsea feel about this transfer in the years to come.

---

“More or less, I’m a midfield player but I like to go into the box”
– Kai Havertz to The Athletic, August 2021

Virtually from the moment head coach Tuchel lost trust in Timo Werner and Chelsea’s club-record signing Romelu Lukaku in 2022, Havertz was irreversibly miscast as a No 9 at Stamford Bridge.

Battling bigger and more physical Premier League centre-backs every week and most often receiving the ball with his back to goal rather than running onto the play from deeper positions, Havertz only rarely resembled the attacking midfielder who had shone at Leverkusen.

The below graphics underline the fundamental positional shift he has undergone since moving from Germany in September 2020.

First, here is the breakdown of where on the pitch he spent the majority of his league minutes during four seasons with Leverkusen…

… and here is that same information for his three Premier League years so far:

At times, Havertz has looked to be weighed down by the formidable burden of being the primary scoring threat in a deeply dysfunctional Chelsea attack. No player in the Premier League endured a greater under-performance relative to their expected goals (xG) number in 2022-23, though it must be noted that last season was an anomaly in the 24-year-old’s career and he over-performed relative to xG in each of his final two Bundesliga seasons at Leverkusen:

On the rare occasions when he has not been deployed as Chelsea’s most advanced attacker, Havertz flashed many of the qualities that first marked him out as one to watch in Germany.

His best performance of last season came in the Champions League round of 16 second-leg victory at home to Borussia Dortmund in early March, where he operated as a No 10 in a 3-4-3 behind Raheem Sterling.

That is the position and role in which he thrived at Leverkusen at the end of the 2018-19 season under Peter Bosz, scoring seven goals in the final seven games to help secure a top-four finish and Champions League qualification. It is Havertz’s most prolific season so far as he finished as Leverkusen’s top scorer (17, including three penalties), even though he had just three shots and two goals from within the six-yard box during it.

Despite his 6ft 2in (186cm) frame, Havertz is very much at the ‘false’ end of the No 9 spectrum. During his 19-month Chelsea tenure, Tuchel called his countryman a “unique” and “hybrid” player, something between a No 9 and a No 10. “He’s very comfortable in the box; he’s very comfortable in high positions, he’s very good at offensive headers, he has good timing to arrive in the box, good finishing, good composure in the box, around the box,” Tuchel said in February 2021, shortly after he succeeded Lampard.

From deeper positions, Havertz can make his preferred half-space runs but also do most of his work facing the opposition goal.

Only Manchester City’s relentless Erling Haaland (349) made more off-ball runs into the opposition box than Havertz (334) in the Premier League last season. And the German ranked behind only Tottenham’s Son Heung-min (1,093 to 1,070) for “off-ball runs” — defined by Opta as a sustained off-ball movement by a player whose team is in possession, made with intensity, in order to receive a pass or create space — among all wingers or strikers.

These movements frequently added value for his team either in finding space for himself or creating it for others, even if much of this did not ultimately filter through to his own bottom-line production.

The best of these off-ball runs into the box was for his goal at Leicester City in March, timing his run to stay onside — Havertz was the second-most offside player in the Premier League last season (28, one behind Leicester striker Jamie Vardy) — before chipping the ball over Danny Ward:

He scored a similar, match-winning goal from a Jorginho wedge-shot of a pass in-behind against Newcastle United a year earlier, ghosting in on the blind side of Dan Burn, controlling, and then poking the ball past Martin Dubravka:

But it is notable how many of Havertz’s best runs for through balls come from deeper — a theme which would complement Arsenal’s increasing verticality.

The most significant of these runs was, of course, for his 2020-21 Champions League final-winning goal against Manchester City:

While on paper Arsenal lined up in a 4-3-3 last season, their attacking shape more commonly reassembled a 3-2-5 when the left-back, either Zinchenko or Tierney, moved into midfield and the two ‘free No 8s’ pushed forward into the half-spaces. That created a similar midfield box to the one Havertz played in during that win over Dortmund and in his Leverkusen days.

Fundamentally, this allows Havertz to operate deeper, in the half-spaces where he is closer to the ball. His tendency to want the ball played to feet is problematic as a No 9 because that fails to stretch the defence, but it is essential for a No 8 in an Arteta team. There is a creative side to Havertz that is often overlooked: he had the most open-play shot-creating actions of any Chelsea player in the Premier League last season (54).

Havertz could operate for Arsenal in either of the more advanced midfield roles — he is left-footed, like Xhaka and Martin Odegaard — and it is easy to imagine him finishing the type of cutbacks that were the trademark of Arteta’s team last season and which Odegaard scored from twice at home to Chelsea on May 2:

Havertz’s off-ball movement should make him a really good fit, in an attacking sense, for the left-sided No 8 role. Xhaka’s redemption under Arteta in recent years was built in part on the way his off-ball runs into the box either provided a direct attacking threat or created more space for the winger on the Arsenal left (primarily Gabriel Martinelli).

There is also the fact that many of Havertz’s best chances for Chelsea were generated from the right flank, either in the form of crosses, cutbacks or deeper deliveries into the box. It is not difficult to imagine Odegaard and Bukayo Saka combining to supply a steady, high-quality diet of the pass types depicted below for him to convert:

The big question is whether Havertz will be able to replicate Xhaka’s defensive contributions in a midfield role. That is likely to be the most challenging aspect of this positional adjustment, but the 24-year-old’s willingness to work hard without the ball has never been doubted at Chelsea; after shifting him more permanently to the point of attack, Tuchel cited the “huge volume” that he brought to the team’s aggressive pressing.

While the repositioning of a forward into a No 8 role appears difficult, Havertz would follow a current trend of central attackers or wingers becoming advanced midfielders in a 4-3-3.

Joelinton at Newcastle is the poster boy for this particular shift, but other successful examples include Harvey Elliott at Liverpool (following Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain) and Alex Iwobi for Everton. Patrick Vieira tried it with Eberechi Eze and Michael Olise at Crystal Palace, and there have been times when Pep Guardiola has played Phil Foden in this role at Manchester City.

Moreover, there is compelling evidence above to suggest Havertz will actually be moving into the position he should have been playing all along.

---

Havertz follows David Luiz, Willian and Jorginho as Chelsea players who have moved directly to Arsenal since 2019. He stands alone, however, in being the first to do so with what most would assume to be the prime years of his career still ahead of him.

This is a factor which gave Boehly and Clearlake pause before sanctioning his departure, and it is also one that will linger in the minds of the Chelsea supporters still enamoured with his talent. There remains a distinct possibility that a different, more individually favourable football environment could unlock new levels in his game, and watching that process play out with him in an Arsenal shirt will be particularly galling for those who lived his struggles at Stamford Bridge.

Ultimately though, business considerations won out; it is hard to credibly argue Chelsea are getting a bad price for the version of Havertz they have seen up close for the past three years. Fitting him into the salary structure that Boehly and Clearlake want to implement always looked unlikely, and offloading his wages affords Chelsea greater flexibility moving forward.

Arsenal are effectively paying that fee for the player Arteta believes Havertz can be in his system. There will be moments next season when his versatile skill set may be utilised as a false nine or across the front line — further enhancing the positional depth provided by January signing Leandro Trossard — but ultimately this sizeable recruitment bet will be won or lost on the German’s ability to thrive as a left-sided No 8.

Is there a superstar within Havertz? This next chapter of his career should provide us with a definitive answer.

(Additional contributors: Mark Carey and John Muller)

 

bearbeitet 22. Juni 2023 von Jay Gooner

[oggy4tw]

alter der thread  

 

"Virtually from the moment head coach Tuchel lost trust in Timo Werner and Chelsea’s club-record signing Romelu Lukaku in 2022, Havertz was irreversibly miscast as a No 9 at Stamford Bridge."

[Jay Gooner]

der artikel ist generell ein must-read in seiner vollständigkeit, aber ein wichtiges detail am rande hier auch

"No player in the Premier League endured a greater under-performance relative to their expected goals (xG) number in 2022-23, though it must be noted that last season was an anomaly in the 24-year-old’s career and he over-performed relative to xG in each of his final two Bundesliga seasons at Leverkusen"

[froehlix]

https://www.transfermarkt.at/spieler-statistik/wertvollstemannschaften/marktwertetop

Ich weiß, sind nur Transfermarkt Werte (@themanwhowasntthere ), aber #2 der "wertvollsten Vereine" find ich dann trotzdem heftig und zeigt zumindest, dass es ganz gut läuft im Moment

Mit dem richtigen Timing könnten wir sogar (zumindest kurzfristig) City überholen