11 replies to this topic

[Borys]

Gruess Gott!
Ich kenne kein Deutsch.
Can I ask a question about Austrian football in english?
EDIT: corrected "klein" to "kein"
Borys

Dieser Beitrag wurde von Borys bearbeitet: 29. März 2010 - 20:46

[raumplaner]

Borys sagte am 29. März 2010 - 18:40:

klein Deutsch.

klein Deutsch is not Austria!


just go on...

[Borys]

Gruess Gott!
I wanted to say that I don't known the German language, not that I think that Austria is "Little Germany". It was to be "kein", not "klein". Appologies if I offended anybody.

Note to self - not to use languages I don't know ...


My questions - I and a bloke at the Scottish football forum (www.Pieandbovril.com) were wondering about a few features of the unique system used in Austria between (more or less) '84 and '92.

We can guess that the reason for adopting the "2x12 becomes 3x8" system was to make the season more interesting. However, we do not fully understand the reason for some arrangements concerning points won in the Fall Season.

1 - The Meister and Abstiegs groups had their points halved.
Hadn't it had been more fair for them to keep points won against one another (i.e. taking away the points won against teams which went to the Mittler group)?

2 - the Mittler group started with zero points.
Again, those teams could had retained the points won in direct confrontation.

3 - why exactly was this system abandoned?
We have several theories here, and we wonder which factor or group of factors actually decided the issue ...

Now something closer to today ...
4 - why was the play-off between no. 9 in the 1st and the runner up in the 2nd Division abandoned?

5 - are there protests over there being only one relegation spot in the Top Flight?

6 - can I repost answers at the Scottish football forum?

Borys

Dieser Beitrag wurde von Borys bearbeitet: 29. März 2010 - 19:20

[raumplaner]

first of all, welcome!
btw, you wasn't offending anybody, but a misspelling like yours could have been seen as a kind of invitation...

your questions are tough. wouldn't be easy to find a general solution as truth lies in the eye of the beholder.

let me pick the easiest question (apart from #6):

ad 2: i assume this would not be fair. teams coming from the first division tend to have less points than the 4 coming from the second division. so they started a complete new tournament.

[schallvogl]

Borys sagte am 29. März 2010 - 19:19:

Gruess Gott!
I wanted to say that I don't known the German language, not that I think that Austria is "Little Germany". It was to be "kein", not "klein". Appologies if I offended anybody.

Note to self - not to use languages I don't know ...


My questions - I and a bloke at the Scottish football forum (www.Pieandbovril.com) were wondering about a few features of the unique system used in Austria between (more or less) '84 and '92.

We can guess that the reason for adopting the "2x12 becomes 3x8" system was to make the season more interesting. However, we do not fully understand the reason for some arrangements concerning points won in the Fall Season.

1 - The Meister and Abstiegs groups had their points halved.
Hadn't it had been more fair for them to keep points won against one another (i.e. taking away the points won against teams which went to the Mittler group)?

2 - the Mittler group started with zero points.
Again, those teams could had retained the points won in direct confrontation.

3 - why exactly was this system abandoned?
We have several theories here, and we wonder which factor or group of factors actually decided the issue ...

Now something closer to today ...
4 - why was the play-off between no. 9 in the 1st and the runner up in the 2nd Division abandoned?

5 - are there protests over there being only one relegation spot in the Top Flight?

6 - can I repost answers at the Scottish football forum?

Borys

I think I can answer your questions:

1)This rule wasn't established from the beginning. It was established around 1987 or 1988 and called the "Lex Rapid". In these years Rapid Vienna was so dominant in the league, and the rule was established to make the league more suspenseful.

2)No, because there were 4 teams from the first division and 4 from the second. You can't mix the points of the first half of the championship because the points were won and lost against different teams.

3) Because of the reestablishement of the 10er Liga, the system of the early 70' which was made responsible for the successes of the national team in 1978 and 1982 because of the concentration of the powers. Furthermore especially the Abstiegs-Play-off had very low attendances because the last 3 were relegated and the other 5 had nothing to win or to lose. Same for the last 3 of the Top-Playoff.

4)Don't know. It was abandonned from one season to another without any explanation. Maybe because some of the results were...well...strange. For example the 6-1 victory of my team Admira/Wacker against Gerasdorf in 1996, knowing that most of the Gerasdorf-Players were Admira-Players on loan.

5)Not really. You know, Austrian Football has sometimes a very strange culture. For example last years Cup-Final wasn't played in the national Happel-Stadion, not even in Vienna but in the little village of Mattersburg. And apart from the Freaks here in the forum nobody really cared or complained.

6)Why not?

Cheers

PS: Sorry for the errors in my English.

Dieser Beitrag wurde von schallvogl bearbeitet: 29. März 2010 - 20:15

[revo]

raumplaner sagte am 29. März 2010 - 19:34:

ad 2: i assume this would not be fair. teams coming from the first division tend to have less points than the 4 coming from the second division. so they started a complete new tournament.

His question was about the games played against the teams who descended or ascended with them. Like it happens at the ice-hockey world championships for example.

My guess would be to have more games to be played since this meant more money to make.

The system was abandoned because they didn't like it anymore. Maybe some 40+ year olds can answer that better.

And there are no protests about the relegation. Only one change every season makes it easier for the smaller clubs to survive in the Bundesliga. Protests are going on one league above, since there are 3 Regionalliga but only 2 places to ascend to the Erste Liga. But no one is discussing about an relegation spot between Bundesliga and Erste Liga.

Are you Scots planing on introducing this system? Or where does your discussion come from?

And you can copy (at least my) answers to the other board, but our administrator, the great Chiefass called Dannyo, would surely be happy if you post a link to the topic on this board.

[+[Jogi]+]

thankfully schallvogel has answered the questions, i would have my fair bit of problems with them.

anyhow, in return i just have a questions with regard to the playoffs as I was just recently talking with a scottish guy and he also put forward the idea of play-offs. in addition i have seen a couple of "play-off" fan pages on facebook and reformation pages. Well we know scottish football has seen better days but is there any real discussion going on or is it just a couple of fellas discussing it in the forums?

[raumplaner]

revo sagte am 29. März 2010 - 20:15:

His question was about the games played against the teams who descended or ascended with them. Like it happens at the ice-hockey world championships for example.

i know. i see your point that strictly mathematically the same amounts of points would have been distributed to each 4 clubs, nevertheless i assume it wouldn't be fair to victimise those teams of division 1 which achieved their wins against stronger clubs (which would be completely lost then).

Dieser Beitrag wurde von raumplaner bearbeitet: 29. März 2010 - 20:28

[Borys]

Gruess Gott!
Thank you for your answers so far!

To clarify a certain point - I'm Polish, not Scottish, but I'm a fan of Scottish fotball

A part of Scottish fans are unhappy about the current arrangement, and are thinking of alternatives. 16 teams, 18 teams, the Old Austrian System, Summer Football, playing Apertura + Clausura half-seasons - you name it, it is being suggested
Not a week passes without a new "how to rearrange Scottish football" thread

A much larger group (than those suggesting changing the current "12 teams with split" system) is unhappy about the single relegation place from the SPL to the 1st Division. In seasons where the last team lags a long way behind number 11, it is boring ...

Borys

Dieser Beitrag wurde von Borys bearbeitet: 29. März 2010 - 20:30

[OoK_PS]

+[Jogi]+ sagte am 29. März 2010 - 20:25:

thankfully schallvogel has answered the questions, i would have my fair bit of problems with them.

anyhow, in return i just have a questions with regard to the playoffs as I was just recently talking with a scottish guy and he also put forward the idea of play-offs. in addition i have seen a couple of "play-off" fan pages on facebook and reformation pages. Well we know scottish football has seen better days but is there any real discussion going on or is it just a couple of fellas discussing it in the forums?

http://news.bbc.co.u...rem/8549611.stm

[raumplaner]

revo sagte am 29. März 2010 - 20:15:

And there are no protests about the relegation. Only one change every season makes it easier for the smaller clubs to survive in the Bundesliga. Protests are going on one league above, since there are 3 Regionalliga but only 2 places to ascend to the Erste Liga. But no one is discussing about an relegation spot between Bundesliga and Erste Liga.

the interesting thing is that last time when 2 teams from league 2 jumped into league 1 all at once (using this supplemental relegation spot), both teams stayed in league 1 for quite a long time (team 1 was GAK from graz, team 2 was SV ried).

Borys sagte am 29. März 2010 - 20:29:

A much larger group (than those suggesting changing the current "12 teams with split" system) is unhappy about the single relegation place from the SPL to the 1st Division. In seasons where the last team lags a long way behind number 11, it is boring ...

same situation right now in austria.
(but actually i'm quite happy about this due to recent results of my club SV ried)

Dieser Beitrag wurde von raumplaner bearbeitet: 29. März 2010 - 20:35

[Borys]

Gruess Gott!

+[Jogi]+ sagte am 29. März 2010 - 20:25:

anyhow, in return i just have a questions with regard to the playoffs as I was just recently talking with a scottish guy and he also put forward the idea of play-offs. in addition i have seen a couple of "play-off" fan pages on facebook and reformation pages. Well we know scottish football has seen better days but is there any real discussion going on or is it just a couple of fellas discussing it in the forums?

I gather that it is mostly talk on the forums. However, there are some noises from the SPL that they will "examine many options". Not so long age the SPL put up an on-line questionnaire asking fans what they think about the SPL and what changes they'd like to see.

Edit:
To make the Scottish acronyms easier to understand:
- SPL - runs the top division, the Premiership;
- SFL - runs divisions ranked 2nd through 4th (and named 1st, 2nd and 3rd);
- SFA - Scottish Football Association - the overall ruling body;

Borys

Dieser Beitrag wurde von Borys bearbeitet: 29. März 2010 - 20:41