Geldsorgen bei Wacker Tirol

[badest]

hach badest, wir sollten uns mal treffen..., wenn ich nicht schon diplomarbeit schreibnen würde, DAS wär genau mein thema

gern. das thema klingt tatsächlich nach keiner schlechten idee.

[Gast schwejk]

ps: kann jedem hier nur empfehlen den ignore button beim herrn schweijk zu aktivieren, das leben ist so viel schöner ohne professionelle querulanten...

schön. daß du dich mit so vielen guten argumenten an der diskussion beteiligst...bissi sehr tief

[badest]

schön. daß du dich mit so vielen guten argumenten an der diskussion beteiligst...bissi sehr tief

immerhin müsstest so langsam wirklich dran glauben können, dass wir dich hier nicht mögen

[Gast schwejk]

immerhin müsstest so langsam wirklich dran glauben können, dass wir dich hier nicht mögen

mir geht es auch nicht darum, möglichst beliebt hier zu sein - ich will einfach vernünftig diskutieren. selbstbeweihräucherer gibt es ohnehin genug.

[badest]

mir geht es auch nicht darum, möglichst beliebt hier zu sein - ich will einfach vernünftig diskutieren.

wir werden versuchen, dir dies auch in zukunft so schwer wie möglich zu machen.

[Gast schwejk]

wir werden versuchen, dir dies auch in zukunft so schwer wie möglich zu machen.

einen schwejk erschüttert so schnell nix :-)

[Komsomolez]

Der wacker4ever des ASB ist geboren

[gogo]

Hello!

I'm sorry, but I don't speak German very well so I will write this post in English.

I want to know, what is with debt of FC Tirol, which was approximately 60 mio € as I read?

If I understand right, when FC Tirol merged with another club, it has no debts any more?

I also read that there is process against people who were in FC Tirol "präsidium" and that it will continue on 10. january 2005.

I would be glad, if someone could answer my questions. If noone wants to write here, please write me personal message or e-mail.

Thank you and sorry for my (not best) English.

[badest]

it's absolutely wrong to believe that FC Tirol "merged" with another club. FC Tirol went bankrupt in 2002 and didn't exist any longer, except for the courtrooms where the ones who are responsible for the 50-60 million-debt will be found out.

FC Wacker Tirol is a in 2002 new-founded club, who merged with a tyrolean team in the third league of Austria, WSG Wattens. the two teams played under the same name, but got separated again when the club made their way to the second league. since then FC Wacker Tirol is completely on its own. but the connection with WSG Wattens and the whole club itself, to say it one more time, has absolutely nothing to do with FC Tirol, which died in 2002.

of course, there are other connections between the former club and the current one, that have nothing to do with legal things. most of the fans of FC Wacker Tirol were FC Tirol-fans, we play in the same stadium and in our hearts, because of the memories we have from matches with FC Tirol, the two clubs are nearly one and the same and share the same history.

that is also why FC Wacker-supporters want FC Wacker Tirol being re-named to FC Wacker Innsbruck, the name the club got when it was founded in 1913.

i guess i can say that the fans here aren't that much interested in the FC Tirol-process, because it's regarded as something which happened in the past and that doesn't have any influences on the current situation of the team we love and support now. we are very satisfied with the new-founded club and i guess no one would want the old FC Tirol back. but you can still ask questions about the lawsuit, and we can try to answer.

would be interesting to know where you are from and why you are interested in our history. hope i could help a bit.

bearbeitet 7. Dezember 2004 von badest

[Gast schwejk]

FC Wacker Tirol is a in 2002 new-founded club, who merged with a tyrolean team in the third league of Austria, WSG Wattens. the two teams played under the same name, but got separated again when the club made their way to the second league. since then FC Wacker Tirol is completely on its own. but the connection with WSG Wattens and the whole club itself, to say it one more time, has absolutely nothing to do with FC Tirol, which died in 2002.

it has nothing to do with the old team except:

- alfred hörtnagl, at the time of the merger member of the austrian national squad, although in his mid-thirties

- the same sponsor (although TIWAG was only a minor sponsor)

- the stadium (they played even in the third league, although wsg wattens was the bigger of the two merged teams at tivoli in innsbruck, austria´s most modern stadium)

- the fans

- the team-colours

the team ist juristically a new team, the fans however started a no-support-movement, because the club did not put the year 1913 in its team-name, the year of the foundation of the former, former, former team wacker innsbruck.

so most of the fans say the team has nothing to do with the past, still they argue about not putting the foundation year 1913 into the team´s nam

by the way, it is still not determined how high the total debt of fc tirol was, the court trial will take at least another three months.

estimates are about 60 million euros.

[gogo]

Hello again!

Thank you for your answers, Badest and Schwejk.

To Badest: I'm from Slovenia, a fan of football club Olimpija Ljubljana (Aleksander Knavs who played for Tirol also played for Olimpija in mid 90s).

Let me explain my interest in Tirol's history and tell you something about Olimpija:

In year 2002, when Tirol bankrupted, we were reading a lot in our newspapers about that. Especially because our (almost all) clubs in first league have financial problems. The same is with Olimpija. The debt of Olimpija in 2001 was about 1 mio € and then in May 2001 a new club was founded, called »NSD NK Olimpija« (former was »NK Olimpija«). (NK means football club and NSD means football sport association.) This is so called by-pass club.

With forming new club they wanted to avoid crediters but they still continued to play in Slovenian 1st League. Also some lawyers said that the new club (NSD NK Olimpija) is not juridical follower of former »NK Olimpija«, because it has new number in register of clubs. I know, it's very complicated... It seems that our National Football Association made an (intentional?) mistake that it allowed to play Olimpija (and other 7 or 8 clubs) in 1st League.

Then came new director (in 2002) in Olimpija with some money and creditors saw a chance to get money from past. In june 2004 this director went away and Olimpija has now around 6,5 mio € of debt. I think that Olimpija will soon be there, where Tirol was in 2002: nowhere.

I know it may sound strange for you, whose club had 60 mio € of debt, but you must know, that average budget of our 1st league team is around 0,5 mio €.

One of problems of Olimpija is also that it didn't get the licence for playing in UEFA competitions for year 2004/05. We can only play in our national league. The reason for not giving the licence to Olimpija was that National football association demanded that all clubs sign statement that they are taking over all debt from past. Olimpija signed that but with addition that they are taking over all debt from past »...but only from 2002 onwards.« FA didn't agree with that. This statement from FA was obviously made to protect themselves in front of UEFA, because they allowed establishing by-pass clubs.

As you, Badest and Schwejk answered to almost all my questions I have only few of them left:

1. Does the old club FC Tirol, who went bankrupt in 2002 and has 60 mio € debt, exist at least in some register?

2. If the answer to 1st question is yes, how did the (new) administration board managed to estimate a club with almost the same name as former, because in your »Vereinsgesetz« from 2002 stays: »§ 4. (1) Der Name des Vereins muss einen Schluss auf den Vereinszweck zulassen und darf nicht irreführend sein. Verwechslungen mit anderen bestehenden Vereinen, Einrichtungen oder Rechtsformen müssen ausgeschlossen sein.«?

If I comment this second question: Here in Slovenia we have almost the same law about Clubs, Associations (as in all EU) and it is obvious that in 2001 someone intentionally didn't see that the club with name »Olimpija« already exist. Now fans of Olimpija are affraid if new club (who will be playing in lowest division) with old name Olimpija will be established that creditors will come again.

3. What was with youth teams (U-18, U-16...) when Tirol bankrupt? Were they seperated and were the other firm (or association) already before club went bankrupt or did they also go to the lowest divisons with new club? Did they merged then also with this second club WSG Wattens?

4. (Maybe a bit stupid question) Was former Tirol organised as a firm or as an association? If it was association – how many members did it has and who were they (players, managers, suporters...)?

Let me explain also this question: Olimpija is organised as an association and associations cannot bankrupt. They can only be abolished. For abolition must be 2/3 of all members of association. More than 1/3 of members are players. Because players are also creditors they will never vote for Olimpija to be abolished because they know that they will never get their money then.

5. Who are the biggest creditors of former FC Tirol?

6. Were too high wages the only/most important reason for bankruptcy or also a business with company from Florida?

If you do not want to answer here I will give you my e-mail. Thanx again!

P.S.: Congratulations for draw against Rapid!

bearbeitet 8. Dezember 2004 von gogo

[Gast schwejk]

Hello again!

Thank you for your answers, Badest and Schwejk.

To Badest: I'm from Slovenia, a fan of football club Olimpija Ljubljana (Aleksander Knavs who played for Tirol also played for Olimpija in mid 90s).

Let me explain my interest in Tirol's history and tell you something about Olimpija:

In year 2002, when Tirol bankrupted, we were reading a lot in our newspapers about that. Especially because our (almost all) clubs in first league have financial problems. The same is with Olimpija. The debt of Olimpija in 2001 was about 1 mio € and then in May 2001 a new club was founded, called »NSD NK Olimpija« (former was »NK Olimpija«). (NK means football club and NSD means football sport association.) This is so called by-pass club.

With forming new club they wanted to avoid crediters but they still continued to play in Slovenian 1st League. Also some lawyers said that the new club (NSD NK Olimpija) is not juridical follower of former »NK Olimpija«, because it has new number in register of clubs. I know, it's very complicated... It seems that our National Football Association made an (intentional?) mistake that it allowed to play Olimpija (and other 7 or 8 clubs) in 1st League.

Then came new director (in 2002) in Olimpija with some money and creditors saw a chance to get money from past. In june 2004 this director went away and Olimpija has now about 1,5 mio € of debt. I think that Olimpija will soon be there, where Tirol was in 2002: nowhere.

I know it may sound strange for you, whose club had 60 mio € of debt, but you must know, that average budget of our 1st league team is around 0,5 mio €.

One of problems of Olimpija is also that it didn't get the licence for playing in UEFA competitions for year 2004/05. We can only play in our national league. The reason for not giving the licence to Olimpija was that National football association demanded that all clubs sign statement that they are taking over all debt from past. Olimpija signed that but with addition that they are taking over all debt from past »...but only from 2002 onwards.« FA didn't agree with that. This statement from FA was obviously made to protect themselves in front of UEFA, because they allowed establishing by-pass clubs.

As you, Badest and Schwejk answered to almost all my questions I have only few of them left:

1. Does the old club FC Tirol, who went bankrupt in 2002 and has 60 mio € debt, exist at least in some register?

2. If the answer to 1st question is yes, how did the (new) administration board managed to estimate a club with almost the same name as former, because in your »Vereinsgesetz« from 2002 stays: »§ 4. (1) Der Name des Vereins muss einen Schluss auf den Vereinszweck zulassen und darf nicht irreführend sein. Verwechslungen mit anderen bestehenden Vereinen, Einrichtungen oder Rechtsformen müssen ausgeschlossen sein.«?

If I comment this second question: Here in Slovenia we have almost the same law about Clubs, Associations (as in all EU) and it is obvious that in 2001 someone intentionally didn't see that the club with name »Olimpija« already exist. Now fans of Olimpija are affraid if new club (who will be playing in lowest division) with old name Olimpija will be established that creditors will come again.

3. What was with youth teams (U-18, U-16...) when Tirol bankrupt? Were they seperated and were the other firm (or association) already before club went bankrupt or did they also go to the lowest divisons with new club? Did they merged then also with this second club WSG Wattens?

4. (Maybe a bit stupid question) Was former Tirol organised as a firm or as an association? If it was association – how many members did it has and who were they (players, managers, suporters...)?

Let me explain also this question: Olimpija is organised as an association and associations cannot bankrupt. They can only be abolished. For abolition must be 2/3 of all members of association. More than 1/3 of members are players. Because players are also creditors they will never vote for Olimpija to be abolished because they know that they will never get their money then.

5. Who are the biggest creditors of former FC Tirol?

6. Were too high wages the only/most important reason for bankruptcy or also a business with company from Florida?

If you do not want to answer here I will give you my e-mail. Thanx again!

P.S.: Congratulations for draw against Rapid!

hello to slovenia! it is good to hear from countries which we are not well informed about.

to your questions:

1. it still does exist, but there is a lawer called "masseverwalter" who took over the business. he was ordered by court, a regular procedure in austrian law with bankrupt companies or teams. he has to do the best for the creditors`money, so he has the right to fight many of the club`s decisions in the past in order to get some money for the creditors.

it is very complicated, because at the same time there is a court trial against manager, president and former president because of fraud.

2. the club does exist, but there are no employees, etc. everything has to be sold by the "masseverwalter" in order to get money for the creditors (austrian law). when this process will be finished, the club will be deleted from the austrian register.

there is no team playing for "FC Tirol"

3. fc tirol had no youth teams, all youth teams were BNZ-teams, that means that these teams are in the same city of bundesliga (first league in austria) teams, but they are independent. they get their money from the bundesliga, not from the teams. usually young players from these teams move to the local club, but the players have no contract with the club, they have contracts with the BNZ-teams and are free agents at the age of 19.

4. there was a lot of companies and associations - the court trial should lighten this particular case up.

however, in my opinion, it was obvious fraud especially by former manager Robert Hochstaffl. he was manager of the club and besides that he owned a company which managed 18 out of 25 players of FC Tirol. So he always had to negotiate with himself when contract negotiations took place.

5. there are many creditors: the president himself who signed a dubious (??) paper that made him take over all the debts of FC Tirol. the players, social security, secretary for finances, etc....

if the court trial will say that former president bruckmüller has to take over all the debts, mr. bruckmüller will be ruined.

6. in my opinion too high wages were the most important among a lot of important reasons for the bankruptcy, for example: incapatility of the management, a manager who owns a company that manages players of the team, a victory in the austrian bundesliga cost 70.000 euro only bonuses, a fitness coach earned 70.000 euro a year, etc...

it is obvious that money did not matter to the persons managing fc tirol downwards for years, they calculated their budget including CL-earnings, but failed to qualify.

the florida business was a highlight: rumours said that there was an investor from florida (Parker Leasing Inc.) who wanted to build up a big club in europe. Parker Leasing was said to spend money on fc tirol, all the managers would have to do was sending 600.000 (!!!) euro as leasing fee to florida, then the money woudl be sent to tirol. 600.000 euro were sent to somewhere but nothing arrived in tirol. rumours say that the 600.000 euro are somewhere in the caribbean sea where the former manager and president will pick them up....

there was also trouble with new players. their former teams (austria wien) did not receive transfer fee....

enough stuff for a criminal novel.

i hope that i could help you, just ask for questions